Boundaries Debate - Conclusions

Soon after the 2nd Boundaries Debate ended , it was decided to immediately search more extensively for a Parish map of Togher and to this end it was accidentally discovered in Tom O'Keeffe's first Book - " Togher , A Brief History ". Even though the photocopy was of poor quality , it could be discerned from cross comparing with modern aerial photography exactly the path the drawn border took , especially with regard to the southernmost portion. It should be officially stated that Parish boundaries are purely for administrative purposes for the Catholic Church or indeed any religion as an area of operations for its Clergy and are not legal boundaries. However , judging by the 1997 facsimile as shown below ( poor quality image ) most of Togher's Townlands were taken into account , with alas some parts , such as the southern end of Knockalisheen being used to form the Northern part of Ballinaboy Parish and the eastern regions of Lehenagh More and Lehenagh Beg forming part of Ballyphehane Parish. Despite the shaving off of territory by the Catholic Hierarchy , it is still a matter of fact that these Townlands in their entirety remain affiliated to Togher through their shared historical connections.

Togher R.C. Parish boundary as of 1997

Togher Parish ( R.C. ) boundaries then are as follows: Beginning at the junction of Pouladuff Road and following a line through Edward Walsh Road ( all houses fronting onto same ) down to Togher Road and through Sycamore Place ; then up Hazel Road and across Cherry Tree Road and down towards Whitebeam Road ( Taking in Maple Place and Birch Place ) and towards the Glasheen Bridge , the Church boundary then completely follows the course of the Glasheen River from this point westwards , with all lands south of same coming under its influence right along the South Ring Road before turning onto the Waterfall Road and back up Morrison's Ravine and across country ( to bisect the roads which lead back up north to Crossnacroha a.k.a. Spur Cross ) following the flow of the Glasheen River right to its source near the Runway and turning north to follow the road running alongside the Liberty Stream and the Airport. The boundary then follows the road down to Corcorans Bridge after which it takes the descending road down to Matthews Hill and onto Pouladuff Crossroads. Its final leg then travels on up the Pouladuff Road to meet with the junction again at Edward Walsh Road. This then is the Parish of Togher as determined by the R.C. Church as of 1997.

 Togher District 

( including Parish and Greater Catchment area )

Please note however , that all peripheral lands in the following Townlands ( which fall into Ballinaboy , Lough and Ballyphehane Parishes ) as discussed in previous articles still lie within Togher District and or Suburb : Clashduff , Ardmanning More , Killeenreendowney West , Knockalisheen , Lehenagh More and Lehenagh Beg. In conclusion regarding pockets of land in Doughcloyne and Garrane Darragh purporting to be from Wilton Parish and or District , this notion can be easily dismissed as misinformation , all territory therein being in both Togher Parish and Togher District. Likewise Freagh & Vicars Acre is firmly within the Togher boundaries , both historically and religiously. Finally a line can now be drawn under the search for Togher's proper boundaries ( District and R.C. Parish ) and a functioning Study Area is now in place for future research and exploration by the Togher Historical Association & Blog.

Boundaries Debate II - 19th September 2014 - Togher Community Centre

On the 19th September 2014 , the Blog held a second Boundaries Debate at the Togher Community Centre in Togher at 7.30 p.m. This was a follow on from the previous meeting which proved inconclusive and a revisit was decided on by all present. The purpose of the assembly was to fine tune that which had been discussed before , taking into account ecclesiastical , political and common historical connections. Attendees present on the night were Billy O'Brien ( hosting ) , Daniel O'Riordan , Kathleen O'Keeffe , James O'Brien , Teddy O'Riordan , Eamonn Pearse ( who prepared the event in advance ) with two special guests -  Alex O'Keeffe and Paul O'Keeffe ( Archaeologist ) - who contributed greatly as shall be mentioned later in the article. Appreciation is extended to Fergal Dennehy for booking the room and to the Caretaker ( name unknown ) who patiently waited until the meeting was finished at approximately 9.30. p.m.

Group photograph with special guest 

Archaelogist Paul O'Keeffe ( far right )

The debate began with a brief reiteration of the previous talk with a quick recap of the various factions and borders involved. As is known factually and historically speaking , Togher as a common law entity has existed in one form or another for many Centuries. It is perhaps not accurate to suggest that Togher did not officially exist until 1977 when it became a Catholic Parish in its own right. The fact remains , that even though it had been included in the old Civil Parish of St. Finbarrs and subsequently the Roman Catholic Parish of St. Finbarrs South and in 1890 the much reduced newer St. Finbarrs West Parish a.k.a. The Lough Parish ; it has always had its own identity and was well known and accepted. Even up to 1977 , as part of the Lough Parish ( and Togher people have a deep affinity with the body of water there , with the Togher Road beginning not far from its calm shores ) locals had no problem with identification as Togher. It is perhaps more worrying that later residents from out of town would carry that particular weight on their shoulders.

Trawling through the maps with some expert help

Long before any modern Suburbs or creation of new smaller Parishes , Togher itself was conceived of as painting a very broad canvas. And this was respected without any affront. Roads leading into Togher from as far afield as Friar's Walk were spoken of as Togher , though this may have been a colloquial way of explaining that a person was journeying towards Togher. It must be understood , that the area or region was still very much an agricultural hinterland even though so close to the City and that the land was fairly sparse when it came to actual houses.

Archaelogist Paul O'Keeffe , Kathleen O'Keeffe 

and Billy O'Brien

An important point was raised when looking at other Religious Faiths and their own drawing of boundaries. Of particular interest was the local Church of Ireland Parish of Frankfield , which takes in parts of Togher - Lehenagh Beg and Lehenagh More and extends right across to Douglas. Poignantly , this still does not detract from the Togher name. And of course there are other Faiths , Christian and Non-Christian which may have their own boundaries and titles. This will need further inquiry. All of this serves to remind any local historians that Religion is but one small , though important part of the story.

Daniel O'Riordan steering the 

debate along nicely in his own style

The Blog decided to begin with the boundaries as understood of the present day Catholic Parish and to flesh the territory out from this starting point. The official Catholic website is vague on the actual borders offering only a summary explanation and it was to Richard Henchion's book , " The Land Of The Finest Drop " that reference had to be made. In it , only the Northern portion of the Parish is described : " From Pouladuff Road , down Edward Walsh road ( all houses fronting on to same ) across Togher Road and through Sycamore Place , then up Hazel Road and across Cherry Tree Road and down towards Birch Place and Whitebeam Road and over towards Glasheen Bridge ".

Humour was mixed with the more serious topics

Even the Catholic Diocese maps are discretionary at best and do not show the southernmost portions of the Parishes. But it can be inferred from the cartography with comparisons made with modern aerial photography that the Boundary follows the course of the Glasheen River all the way around the Townlands of Deanrock , Doughcloyne , Garranedarragh , Chetwynd and right down to Knockalisheen from where it begins as a streamlet. Knockamallavoge had been in question , but because of its landlocked nature in relation to the other Townlands of Togher ( Knockalisheen to its South and Doughcloyne to its East ) and the natural feature of the Glasheen River , it was decided that it would have been incomprehensible and illogical for the Catholic Church not to include it as such.

Togher as a Catholic Parish as shown by Diocese

The journey around the region began again at the North , starting at the Pouladuff Road from the junction with Edward Walsh Road and continued South down the thoroughfare towards Pouladuff Crossroads at the Glenmore River by Lehenagh Beg and back up towards the Airport , using the Airport Road as a marker , but realistically citing the actual fast flowing waters of Glenmore as the flanks of the Lehenaghs. Passing Farmers Cross near the entrance to the Airport and further on for a few hundred yards the boundary extends across fields , dissecting the bottom half of the runway and right across the southern end of Gortagoulane to once more meet up with Knockalisheen. Even though Ballyphehane Parish lays claim to the Airport , the actual Terminals and Hotels and the northern potion of the runway fall within Lehenagh More , which is decidedly Togher District. Of course any contentious lobbying by parties is perhaps futile and at best relative , given the recent designation of boundaries by the Catholic Church. In conclusion , all lands within the aforementioned borders are Togher Parish/District.

Of course , as already stated , the modern boundaries were only one side of a double edged sword. Of particular relevance was the portion of land immediately North of the " Parish ". This would include the entirety of Ardmanning More Townland , which today houses Earlwood Estate and the now demolished Ardmanning House and Shopping Centre ( which during the 1970s was titled as Togher S.C. ). All territory West of the Pouladuff Road in Killeenreendowney has a Togher Address - Boston Park , Ardmanning Lawn , Ardmanning Avenue , all houses fronting onto the Togher Road ( locally known as Ardmanning Hill ) and all houses fronting ( on the West side ) onto the Pouladuff Road south of the junction with Pearse Road and thence south again to Pouladuff crossroads and back up the Airport Road ( more properly the Glenmore River ).

Cork City Local Electoral Districts showing 

Togher A ( white ) and Glasheen C 

( parts of Togher ) and Togher A ( greyed out )

One interesting motion was offered by Paul O'Keeffe as to Clashduff Townland being considered completely a part of Togher. However , historically this particular pocket of land has been de facto split between Togher and Glasheen. Even though there is no Glasheen Parish , the region has been mapped as a Suburb in its own right from earliest times. Thus the Western portion which buffers the Glasheen Road is recognised as an entity in its own right with the Eastern portion attributed to Togher , in its recent pre - Development phase known locally as " Ardmanning " ( Togher ) taking in parcels of Killeenreendowney West , certain parts of Clashduff and of course both Ardmanning Townlands. The Catholic Parish lines drawn to delineate Togher actually acknowledged this agreed boundary , making this and Killeenreendowney West the only 2 Townlands to have an historic division , perhaps harking back to more ancient sub divisions.

Determined territory of Togher

The Blog finalised the ongoing Issue with Address snobbery in regions of Doughcloyne and readily agreed that all were within not only Togher Parish but also within Togher District. These lands are not included in the official Wilton Parish which does not stray south of the Glasheen River and all lands therein carry a Togher Address.

Religion and Addresses notwithstanding , modern Political Divisions have thrown their hat into the arena with the quirky mapping of their Local Electoral districts , which amongst others see parts of Togher labelled as Glasheen. It was agreed that these are not official or commonly understood partitions of land and serve only as administrative areas and can be dismissed out of hand.

Paul O'Keeffe gave some great insights into what could reasonably be considered Togher , both in its status as a Parish and a District and advised on Townland boundaries as well as the southerly townlands of Knocknamallavoge ( not mentioned in the "Togher Past And Present " book but was determined as already stated as being in Togher Parish ) and Knockalisheen ( which is considered as Togher ).

 Final verdict being delivered on area 

of operations to be studied in future

A welcome tea break followed the intense discussions which were punctuated with dry humour  and indigenous patois which could only stem from Togher people. Some quick scanning duties for another project were completed and the group departed tired but more informed about the often thorny subject of lines on maps. Yet again , a rose by any other name ...

Example of An Tochar Causeway

In conclusion the idea of Togher has its roots in the ancient lands of the Ui Mhic Ceir who had their stronghold at Kilmohanoch marked for many Centuries by the Teampaleen ( Church and Graveyard ) located between Matthew Hill and Cros na Gol and the general area therein and can be argued to have existed in one form or another since the 3rd Century A.D. The fact that this vanished medieval town is no more is what makes it all the more tantalizing and is definitely something the Blog will be investigating in much greater detail next year. Terms encountered during research such as Maghy ( Plain ) and Toher Meddow are all the more intoxicating and should serve as primers for engendering more enthusiasm and gusto towards the mission of uncovering yet more of the districts misty past. It should also be pointed out that the Debate was important for a variety of reasons : One ; to actually discover the extent of the territory and Two ; to establish same for the purposes of a factually correct study area.

Boundaries Debate - 13th July 2014

The Blog organised a very special and extremely important meeting for Sunday 13th July 2014. The topic was centred around a Boundaries Debate whose purpose it was to look at for perhaps the first time the area which could be considered de facto Togher. The following attended this historic event: Billy O'Brien , Eamonn Pearse , Mary O'Riordan , Pat O'Rourke , Ted O'Riordan , James O'Brien , Dan O'Riordan and newly elected Cllr Fergal Dennehy with Kathleen O'Keeffe. The forum began at approximately 2.00 p.m. with Billy O'Brien playing host to an eager audience. Though light hearted and casual , it quickly became apparent that the subject matter was a serious one.

Everything starts with a blank canvas

The Debate opened with the caveat that there are no official Suburbs in Cork City as such. What are perceived as such in the public consciousness are actually the Catholic Parishes established by the Bishop of Cork and it was these divisions that the Debate relied heavily on , though not exclusively. The main problem lay with the maxim that Togher along with all of the remaining " suburbs " exists only as a modern concept. To uncover the reality of the situation , history had to be called on and to this end , the vast assortment of boundaries which Togher has been included in down through the Centuries was examined in detail. This entailed a summary look at Religious Divisions , Geographical/Historical Divisions and Parliamentary /Political Divisions to name but a few.

Summary breakdown of the various regional

 and historical divisions

Religious

Starting from the religious perspective , the Blog journeyed back in time to the first documented " Parish ". The old Civil Parish of St Finbarrs over time became broken down into smaller newer Catholic Parishes following Emancipation in the late 1820s. Thus St. Finbarrs South was born which metamorphosed into St. Finbarrs West in 1890 and eventually acquired the descriptive Lough title harking to the location of the Catholic Church which overlooked the titular lake. Togher like many other areas was part of the Lough Parish right up to 1977 when it finally acquired its own Parish status. It must be stated by the Blog that the conferring of R.C. Parish on a region only gives official R.C. Church approval as to the identity of a particular region which must not detract from its sense of place historically. This can be explained by the simple fact that all of Togher was originally inside the boundaries of the old Lough Parish while still retaining its own identity. In fact to date pockets of North Togher still remain within the Lough Parish. This also highlighted the realisation that some Estates would inadvertently be excluded from the R.C. Parish Boundary established back in the 1970s. It also threw up the conundrum of certain parts of Togher being in separate Parishes while having a Togher address and the equally bizarre reality of  still other areas lying inside Togher Parish while having a different address which was dubious at best. The main problem stems from the fact that there are no official online maps with boundaries available with Church sources only indicating broad areas. The Blog noted that this is something which must be investigated in more depth in the near future. As an important footnote it should also be remembered that other Religious Faiths have their own boundaries which may or may not include all or parts thereof of Togher.

This sectioned map illustrates the confusion 

surrounding identification of regions

Geographical

Following on from the various Religious Divisions , the Blog next turned its attentions to the thorny subject of Address Snobbery and Address Robbery. The two are synonymous in that one cannot exist without the other. Whilst being mindful of peoples feelings and respectful of their opinions , one area in particular readily came up for discussion : Wilton. According to official S.M.A. records , large tracts of land were sold to a private development company called Wilton Securities who employed outside contractors to build a wide range of housing estates with a view to conferring the newly built up area with the descriptive title of Wilton. This was a classic case of Snobbery and Robbery being exercised with blatant disregard for local history or territory. Ultimately the fault must lie with the Developers and not the locals who bought properties there. The fact remains that all land south of the Glasheen River is actually Togher , both from a modern Religious perspective but more importantly from an Historical one. It is bizarre that they chose to rename parts of Togher in such a hostile fashion while at the same time hijacking a neighbouring Parishes title! Also , in a bizarre move, the Blog has learned that many Property Sellers are advertising single residences in Togher as being in Wilton.

Local residents in attendance

at the 1st Boundary Debate

Historical

Historically , Togher was first mentioned in the Down Survey of the 1640s , which listed an area , roughly approximating to the territories which the Liberty and Tramore Rivers passed through on its way to the Douglas Estuary , though perhaps not as far. This pocket of arable land immediately adjoining the body of water was denoted as " Toher  Meddow ". In Medieval times before even that ,  it was simply referred to as Magh An Seanaidh or Maghy , essentially a Plain - or Plain of the Synod , indicating its close connection with the ruling Church of the day and hinting at the ownership of lands thereabouts by this Ecclesiastical Authority - e.g. : Killeenreendowney , Ardmanning and Kilmohanoch. Of course following the confiscation of whole Townlands by the English Crown in the late 17th Century , many of the old names were vanquished from living memory but somehow through it all , the name of Togher as a blanket identifier for an entire region still held sway , at least amongst the local indigenous Native Irish.

Togher in 1650 including its historic Townlands

Whilst it is factually correct to state that  the name Togher officially came into usage to describe the hamlet at Togher Cross as far back as the 17th Century , it is also true that the title gained currency across a much larger tract of land before and since. So much so in fact , that it gained an almost familial association with many natives across 14 Townlands. The fact that the Tóchar after which it is named has never been conclusively identified and indeed has many locations atributed to it only adds to the mystery.


Political/Parliamentary

To further compound  confusion it must also be noted that the Togher area in the 19th Century was included in the newly created Poor Law Union of Cork whilst still later on found itself in 3 separate District Electoral Divisions within that Union : Bishopstown , Iniskenny and Lehenagh. Let us also not forget that Togher was included in the South Liberties of the County of the City of Cork! And in the Barony of Cork to boot just to add to the confusion!  Of course it could be argued that even prior to that it was part of the Kingdom of Desmond before the shiring of Ireland during Elizabethan times into full blown Counties. So briefly it can be seen , that historically Togher has been part of many Political Divisions.

D.E.D.s of Bishopstown , Iniskenny and Lehenagh 

which included all or parts of Togher

The Blog wrapped up proceedings with a quick look at the present state of affairs vis-à-vis modern Electoral Divisions which illustrated perfectly a classic example of different layers of Division acting as a catalyst of confusion : Earlwood Estate. This particular region is part of the Lough Parish , has a Togher address and lies inside the Glasheen Ward! So it can be seen that historically , religiously , parliamentary and politically ; Togher has had quite a journey and it's a minor miracle it exists at all today. But the spirit and community of its past generations and the loyalty of its present occupiers serves to ensure its future status as an entity.

Modern Cork South West electoral divisions

Conclusion

The Blog concluded with an exhausting trawl around modern Satellite maps which were simultaneously superimposed over original Townland boundaries working in a clockwise direction from the Lough down to the Airport and back around the course of the Glasheen Stream along the South Ring Road and back up to the Lough. While it was agreed that many peripheral pockets of land needed further study and investigation , the general consensus was that the pieces of the jigsaw were starting to come together in earnest. A much deserved coffee break followed in the canteen where the conversation continued unabated and further projects were discussed for the immediate future. The Blog decided to revisit the Boundaries Debate again at a later date such was the enormity of the subject matter. In conclusion the actual physical boundary is still undecided but much of the work has been done and a full boundary which satisfies and includes all historical , political , geographical and religious borders will be published soon. In the meantime shown below is the area that was studied which may be subject to revision or indeed expansion.

Togher Boundary Study Area 

as shown by white markers

Boundaries Debate Gallery

 Billy O'Brien kick starting the event

Guest of Honour and native of Togher 

going back to the 19th Century - Kathleen O'Keeffe

Cllr Fergal Dennehy ( left ) with Blog guests

Group shot less 

Eamonn Pearse who took the photograph

Intensive study of the Togher region online

Mary O'Riordan imparting her local knowledge

Humorous interactions lightened the whole affair

The most important part of any Debate - Tea Break

Kathleen O'Keeffe with one of the original 

agricultural pieces donated to the Togher Museum 

on display in the grounds of the Togher 

Community Centre