The Blog organised a very special and extremely important meeting for Sunday 13th July 2014. The topic was centred around a Boundaries Debate whose purpose it was to look at for perhaps the first time the area which could be considered de facto Togher. The following attended this historic event: Billy O'Brien , Eamonn Pearse , Mary O'Riordan , Pat O'Rourke , Ted O'Riordan , James O'Brien , Dan O'Riordan and newly elected Cllr Fergal Dennehy with Kathleen O'Keeffe. The forum began at approximately 2.00 p.m. with Billy O'Brien playing host to an eager audience. Though light hearted and casual , it quickly became apparent that the subject matter was a serious one.
Everything starts with a blank canvas
The Debate opened with the caveat that there are no official Suburbs in Cork City as such. What are perceived as such in the public consciousness are actually the Catholic Parishes established by the Bishop of Cork and it was these divisions that the Debate relied heavily on , though not exclusively. The main problem lay with the maxim that Togher along with all of the remaining " suburbs " exists only as a modern concept. To uncover the reality of the situation , history had to be called on and to this end , the vast assortment of boundaries which Togher has been included in down through the Centuries was examined in detail. This entailed a summary look at Religious Divisions , Geographical/Historical Divisions and Parliamentary /Political Divisions to name but a few.
Summary breakdown of the various regional
and historical divisions
Religious
Starting from the religious perspective , the Blog journeyed back in time to the first documented " Parish ". The old Civil Parish of St Finbarrs over time became broken down into smaller newer Catholic Parishes following Emancipation in the late 1820s. Thus St. Finbarrs South was born which metamorphosed into St. Finbarrs West in 1890 and eventually acquired the descriptive Lough title harking to the location of the Catholic Church which overlooked the titular lake. Togher like many other areas was part of the Lough Parish right up to 1977 when it finally acquired its own Parish status. It must be stated by the Blog that the conferring of R.C. Parish on a region only gives official R.C. Church approval as to the identity of a particular region which must not detract from its sense of place historically. This can be explained by the simple fact that all of Togher was originally inside the boundaries of the old Lough Parish while still retaining its own identity. In fact to date pockets of North Togher still remain within the Lough Parish. This also highlighted the realisation that some Estates would inadvertently be excluded from the R.C. Parish Boundary established back in the 1970s. It also threw up the conundrum of certain parts of Togher being in separate Parishes while having a Togher address and the equally bizarre reality of still other areas lying inside Togher Parish while having a different address which was dubious at best. The main problem stems from the fact that there are no official online maps with boundaries available with Church sources only indicating broad areas. The Blog noted that this is something which must be investigated in more depth in the near future. As an important footnote it should also be remembered that other Religious Faiths have their own boundaries which may or may not include all or parts thereof of Togher.
Following on from the various Religious Divisions , the Blog next turned its attentions to the thorny subject of Address Snobbery and Address Robbery. The two are synonymous in that one cannot exist without the other. Whilst being mindful of peoples feelings and respectful of their opinions , one area in particular readily came up for discussion : Wilton. According to official S.M.A. records , large tracts of land were sold to a private development company called Wilton Securities who employed outside contractors to build a wide range of housing estates with a view to conferring the newly built up area with the descriptive title of Wilton. This was a classic case of Snobbery and Robbery being exercised with blatant disregard for local history or territory. Ultimately the fault must lie with the Developers and not the locals who bought properties there. The fact remains that all land south of the Glasheen River is actually Togher , both from a modern Religious perspective but more importantly from an Historical one. It is bizarre that they chose to rename parts of Togher in such a hostile fashion while at the same time hijacking a neighbouring Parishes title! Also , in a bizarre move, the Blog has learned that many Property Sellers are advertising single residences in Togher as being in Wilton.
Historical
Starting from the religious perspective , the Blog journeyed back in time to the first documented " Parish ". The old Civil Parish of St Finbarrs over time became broken down into smaller newer Catholic Parishes following Emancipation in the late 1820s. Thus St. Finbarrs South was born which metamorphosed into St. Finbarrs West in 1890 and eventually acquired the descriptive Lough title harking to the location of the Catholic Church which overlooked the titular lake. Togher like many other areas was part of the Lough Parish right up to 1977 when it finally acquired its own Parish status. It must be stated by the Blog that the conferring of R.C. Parish on a region only gives official R.C. Church approval as to the identity of a particular region which must not detract from its sense of place historically. This can be explained by the simple fact that all of Togher was originally inside the boundaries of the old Lough Parish while still retaining its own identity. In fact to date pockets of North Togher still remain within the Lough Parish. This also highlighted the realisation that some Estates would inadvertently be excluded from the R.C. Parish Boundary established back in the 1970s. It also threw up the conundrum of certain parts of Togher being in separate Parishes while having a Togher address and the equally bizarre reality of still other areas lying inside Togher Parish while having a different address which was dubious at best. The main problem stems from the fact that there are no official online maps with boundaries available with Church sources only indicating broad areas. The Blog noted that this is something which must be investigated in more depth in the near future. As an important footnote it should also be remembered that other Religious Faiths have their own boundaries which may or may not include all or parts thereof of Togher.
This sectioned map illustrates the confusion
surrounding identification of regions
Geographical
Following on from the various Religious Divisions , the Blog next turned its attentions to the thorny subject of Address Snobbery and Address Robbery. The two are synonymous in that one cannot exist without the other. Whilst being mindful of peoples feelings and respectful of their opinions , one area in particular readily came up for discussion : Wilton. According to official S.M.A. records , large tracts of land were sold to a private development company called Wilton Securities who employed outside contractors to build a wide range of housing estates with a view to conferring the newly built up area with the descriptive title of Wilton. This was a classic case of Snobbery and Robbery being exercised with blatant disregard for local history or territory. Ultimately the fault must lie with the Developers and not the locals who bought properties there. The fact remains that all land south of the Glasheen River is actually Togher , both from a modern Religious perspective but more importantly from an Historical one. It is bizarre that they chose to rename parts of Togher in such a hostile fashion while at the same time hijacking a neighbouring Parishes title! Also , in a bizarre move, the Blog has learned that many Property Sellers are advertising single residences in Togher as being in Wilton.
Local residents in attendance
at the 1st Boundary Debate
Historical
Historically , Togher was first mentioned in the Down Survey of the 1640s , which listed an area , roughly approximating to the territories which the Liberty and Tramore Rivers passed through on its way to the Douglas Estuary , though perhaps not as far. This pocket of arable land immediately adjoining the body of water was denoted as " Toher Meddow ". In Medieval times before even that , it was simply referred to as Magh An Seanaidh or Maghy , essentially a Plain - or Plain of the Synod , indicating its close connection with the ruling Church of the day and hinting at the ownership of lands thereabouts by this Ecclesiastical Authority - e.g. : Killeenreendowney , Ardmanning and Kilmohanoch. Of course following the confiscation of whole Townlands by the English Crown in the late 17th Century , many of the old names were vanquished from living memory but somehow through it all , the name of Togher as a blanket identifier for an entire region still held sway , at least amongst the local indigenous Native Irish.
Whilst it is factually correct to state that the name Togher officially came into usage to describe the hamlet at Togher Cross as far back as the 17th Century , it is also true that the title gained currency across a much larger tract of land before and since. So much so in fact , that it gained an almost familial association with many natives across 14 Townlands. The fact that the Tóchar after which it is named has never been conclusively identified and indeed has many locations atributed to it only adds to the mystery.
Political/Parliamentary
To further compound confusion it must also be noted that the Togher area in the 19th Century was included in the newly created Poor Law Union of Cork whilst still later on found itself in 3 separate District Electoral Divisions within that Union : Bishopstown , Iniskenny and Lehenagh. Let us also not forget that Togher was included in the South Liberties of the County of the City of Cork! And in the Barony of Cork to boot just to add to the confusion! Of course it could be argued that even prior to that it was part of the Kingdom of Desmond before the shiring of Ireland during Elizabethan times into full blown Counties. So briefly it can be seen , that historically Togher has been part of many Political Divisions.
The Blog wrapped up proceedings with a quick look at the present state of affairs vis-à-vis modern Electoral Divisions which illustrated perfectly a classic example of different layers of Division acting as a catalyst of confusion : Earlwood Estate. This particular region is part of the Lough Parish , has a Togher address and lies inside the Glasheen Ward! So
it can be seen that historically , religiously , parliamentary and
politically ; Togher has had quite a journey and it's a minor miracle it
exists at all today. But the spirit and community of its past
generations and the loyalty of its present occupiers serves to ensure
its future status as an entity.
Conclusion
The Blog concluded with an exhausting trawl around modern Satellite maps which were simultaneously superimposed over original Townland boundaries working in a clockwise direction from the Lough down to the Airport and back around the course of the Glasheen Stream along the South Ring Road and back up to the Lough. While it was agreed that many peripheral pockets of land needed further study and investigation , the general consensus was that the pieces of the jigsaw were starting to come together in earnest. A much deserved coffee break followed in the canteen where the conversation continued unabated and further projects were discussed for the immediate future. The Blog decided to revisit the Boundaries Debate again at a later date such was the enormity of the subject matter. In conclusion the actual physical boundary is still undecided but much of the work has been done and a full boundary which satisfies and includes all historical , political , geographical and religious borders will be published soon. In the meantime shown below is the area that was studied which may be subject to revision or indeed expansion.
Togher in 1650 including its historic Townlands
Whilst it is factually correct to state that the name Togher officially came into usage to describe the hamlet at Togher Cross as far back as the 17th Century , it is also true that the title gained currency across a much larger tract of land before and since. So much so in fact , that it gained an almost familial association with many natives across 14 Townlands. The fact that the Tóchar after which it is named has never been conclusively identified and indeed has many locations atributed to it only adds to the mystery.
Political/Parliamentary
To further compound confusion it must also be noted that the Togher area in the 19th Century was included in the newly created Poor Law Union of Cork whilst still later on found itself in 3 separate District Electoral Divisions within that Union : Bishopstown , Iniskenny and Lehenagh. Let us also not forget that Togher was included in the South Liberties of the County of the City of Cork! And in the Barony of Cork to boot just to add to the confusion! Of course it could be argued that even prior to that it was part of the Kingdom of Desmond before the shiring of Ireland during Elizabethan times into full blown Counties. So briefly it can be seen , that historically Togher has been part of many Political Divisions.
D.E.D.s of Bishopstown , Iniskenny and Lehenagh
which included all or parts of Togher
Modern Cork South West electoral divisions
Conclusion
The Blog concluded with an exhausting trawl around modern Satellite maps which were simultaneously superimposed over original Townland boundaries working in a clockwise direction from the Lough down to the Airport and back around the course of the Glasheen Stream along the South Ring Road and back up to the Lough. While it was agreed that many peripheral pockets of land needed further study and investigation , the general consensus was that the pieces of the jigsaw were starting to come together in earnest. A much deserved coffee break followed in the canteen where the conversation continued unabated and further projects were discussed for the immediate future. The Blog decided to revisit the Boundaries Debate again at a later date such was the enormity of the subject matter. In conclusion the actual physical boundary is still undecided but much of the work has been done and a full boundary which satisfies and includes all historical , political , geographical and religious borders will be published soon. In the meantime shown below is the area that was studied which may be subject to revision or indeed expansion.
Togher Boundary Study Area
as shown by white markers
Boundaries Debate Gallery
Billy O'Brien kick starting the event
Guest of Honour and native of Togher
going back to the 19th Century - Kathleen O'Keeffe
Cllr Fergal Dennehy ( left ) with Blog guests
Group shot less
Eamonn Pearse who took the photograph
Intensive study of the Togher region online
Mary O'Riordan imparting her local knowledge
Humorous interactions lightened the whole affair
The most important part of any Debate - Tea Break
Kathleen O'Keeffe with one of the original
agricultural pieces donated to the Togher Museum
on display in the grounds of the Togher
Community Centre
2 comments:
Well done billy
Our first comment! Thank you Pat. I must admit I laboured long and hard over the wording and agonised quite a bit over the presentation. But hopefully it will serve as a primer for what we are essentially about , though of course in time I hope for us to branch off into other genres as well : Pirate Radio , Sports , Folklore etc.
Billy.
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